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No Start Condition -- Help!

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    • No Start Condition -- Help!

      I'm on a trip far from home without my main tool set and my '85 K100 has suddenly developed problems including a no start condition. Here's what happened this morning very abruptly:

      Turned on key and all dash lights came on nice and bright. But when I pushed the starter button all I heard was the fuel pump running. The engine did NOT crank and the starter did not spin.

      Tried it several more times. Turned key on and off and jiggled it. Nothing. Then I put bike in gear and pushed it back and forth a little. Finally it did start normally and instantly. But when I stopped to get gas I got the same no start condition as before. After several tries and more pushing it finally started. Came home and tried to restart it. Nothing. Hasn't started since although I tried several times. The bike started PERFECTLY until this morning.

      Last week, however, another problem developed when my turn signals and headlight began to operate erratically. Bike started normally but lights did not work properly. No headlight and turn signals indicator on dash came on but did not flash. High beam indicator flickered. But when I restarted the bike again all lights operated normally. This morning I got the same condition for a couple minutes when the bike was running but then they worked fine again.

      What I don't know is whether or not these two problems are related. Possibly the ignition switch is bad?

      I should add here that I took the ignition switch apart and cleaned the contacts last fall when I had a no start condition one day. But then my dash lights did not work. Now dash lights work fine and are bright and the battery is fully charged.

      Any ideas what might be causing these problems? I'm thinking either ignition switch or possibly starter relay--or possibly both. I'm going out now to buy an electric test meter to see if I'm getting power at the starter relay. I am not hearing a click when I touch the starter button. Only the fuel pump. So maybe no power is getting to the relay. Or maybe power is getting there and the relay isn't working.

      I need to fix this myself and sure would appreciate you guys' input on these problems. I'm 400 miles from home and need to fix it to get back there. Any parts I'll have to order online and get them through the mail. But am I on the right track? Or is there something else I should be doing?

      I have the Haynes K100 workshop manual with me and my BMW toolkit. But not much else in the way of tools or equipment.

      Thanks much!
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      Sounds like the Startermotor needs new contacts, this would explain the funny light and the nogo starting effects.

      2. Gear engageged, 2-3 times rolling backwards still it stops and it should run again...and bring you Home..I'll dig out the required Parts Tomorrow...
      sacht der Till (Jürgen)


      Tills Shop:
      lauter Kram für K, F Und R

      Wilbers und YSS Fahrwerke
      Einspritzventile, Zündkabel, Hallgeber
      Kupplungen, Dichtungen, Nehmerzylinder,
      Ventilatoren Benzinpumpen,
      Synchrontester, Shims, Werkzeuge
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "till" wrote:

      Sounds like the Starter needs new contacts, this would explain the funny light and the nogo starting effects.

      2. Gear engageged, 2-3 times Rolling backwards still it stops and it should run again...


      Do you mean would or would not explain the funny lights?

      By starter "contacts" do you mean what in USA we call brushes?

      Sorry to be so dense....

      I'll try the in-gear and rolling backwards again now.

      Does the starter motor turn over with the bike in gear and moved? That is so the armature turns and the contacts (brushes) find a good spot?

      The funny thing is how the bike started perfectly but suddenly got bad fast.
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      Brushes! Yes! I was lookng for that word!!

      It's a wear and tear item, and will go eventually, by pushing the Bike backwards with gear engaged you force the brushes to run on different ways, and they will have contact again, sorry I cannot explain it better. The Bikes Ground is running via these brushes, hence the Issue with the light when they are Loosing contacts...

      Clean the "Anker" (sorry)... the Round counterpart propperly when changing the Brushes...2 pcs by the way..BMW used to sell one ...

      I hate this .. iphone spellcheck
      sacht der Till (Jürgen)


      Tills Shop:
      lauter Kram für K, F Und R

      Wilbers und YSS Fahrwerke
      Einspritzventile, Zündkabel, Hallgeber
      Kupplungen, Dichtungen, Nehmerzylinder,
      Ventilatoren Benzinpumpen,
      Synchrontester, Shims, Werkzeuge
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "till" wrote:

      And???
      :tappingfoot:


      "And" I thank you guys greatly for the tip. I was out getting a test meter. Now I will go down and play with it some more to see if bumping it in gear really does make a difference. It's not entirely clear that it does but it's the best lead so far, especially if it can mess up the lights from working properly. I'm writing that down...

      I'll be back.

      Ich danke ihnen vielmals!
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      Poor Herbert,

      I know your problem:

      Please take a glimpse onto wiki.bmw-bike-forum.info/index.php/Anlasserprobleme (sorry it's in German)

      1) Starter brushes are worn out badly. For your return to home you will have to jumpstart your bike daily
      2) But for a safe ride back home, please follow my suggestion with a permanently attached 3W bulb (or e.g. car test lamp, "Prueflampe" in German) across the starter motor (drawn in orange color in the picture). Your headlights will work without flickering, your horns will sound clearly and your indicators will indicate correctly.

      I'm the author of this WIKI-contribution and tried it myself.

      Good luck from far Salzburg, Pezi
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "Pezi_S" wrote:

      Poor Herbert,

      I know your problem:

      Please take a glimpse onto wiki.bmw-bike-forum.info/index.php/Anlasserprobleme (sorry it's in German)

      1) Starter brushes are worn out badly. For your return to home you will have to jumpstart your bike daily
      2) But for a safe ride back home, please follow my suggestion with a permanently attached 3W bulb (or e.g. car test lamp, "Prueflampe" in German) across the starter motor (drawn in orange color in the picture). Your headlights will work without flickering, your horns will sound clearly and your indicators will indicate correctly.

      I'm the author of this WIKI-contribution and tried it myself.

      Good luck from far Salzburg, Pezi


      Pezi,

      Ich danke ihnen fuer das Link, but I may attempt to replace the starter brushes. That would be best, don't you think so?

      Please see my next post just to determine for sure what the problem may be. I tested it a little more.

      Grussen von Oberer See!
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      Update!

      I tested K100 some more and discovered the following:

      When I turn ignition/headlight key to on position and the headlight operates like it should then the bike starts normally.

      But if when I turn the key on and the headlight does NOT come on then the bike will NOT start.

      So then I put it in gear and bump it back and forth until the headlight comes on. Then the bike does start. This seems to work every time.

      Also, when the headlight doesn't work and the bike doesn't crank, I can hear the starter relay clicking like you guys said it should.

      Is all this consistent with the starter brushes being bad?

      I'm thinking it is consistent and that I should order a set of starter brushes immediately.

      Question: Do the brushes just drop in or do you need to solder them in or otherwise need special tools?

      Viel Dank!
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "Herbert" wrote:

      Is all this consistent with the starter brushes being bad?

      I'm thinking it is consistent and that I should order a set of starter brushes immediately.

      Question: Do the brushes just drop in or do you need to solder them in or otherwise need special tools?


      YES Herbert,

      your fault is a notworking "load scheduling relais" due to wornout starter brushes.

      Best repair methods, step by step:
      1) replace it with a new starter repair kit from BMW - no special tools needed
      2) replace them with brushes from a Mazda 323 - but you need to grind and solder!
      3) described workaround in my last mail - just to rescue you back home healthy

      But I see, you're great. Best wishes, Pezi
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      On second thought I may take Pezi's advice and do the simple fix with a test lamp. I don't have a vise here to hold the starter so I can get the screws out. I'm reading that the screws holding the starter together are very tight.

      Since my Deutsch is sehr schlecht (poor) maybe you guys can help me out with Pezi's instructions at this link:

      <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wiki.bmw-bike-forum.info/index.php/Anlasserprobleme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://wiki.bmw-bike-forum.info/index.p ... erprobleme</a><!-- m -->

      Does he explain how to permanently attach the test lamp end to the battery? I assume I can cut off the clip end and wire it in at the starter terminal. But at the battery terminal end, do I just tape the probe end on or what? I don't mean to sound stupid, but I want to do it correctly and you guys know more than I do.

      Viel dank!

      PS: I'm going out right now to get a test lamp for the Pezi easy fix. But would a 5 watt fuse in a fuseholder wired between the starter and ground also work?
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "Herbert" wrote:

      Does he explain how to permanently attach the test lamp end to the battery?

      But would a 5 watt fuse in a fuseholder wired between the starter and ground also work?


      Herbert, please purchase some wires with "crocodile clips" too. You have to attach the workaround bulb/cartestlamp in PARALLEL to the starter motor! You don't have to cut/dismount any wires!

      Just clip the bulb to PLUS of starter motor and anywhere to the chassis (MINUS at battery/gearbox region) and fix it permanently with tape.

      Using a fuse would be nonsense! (shortcut!)
      No Herbert, the bulb will slightly glow all the cruise back home (somewhere beneath your seat - please stay serious and look straight forward ;)) but it enables the "load scheduling relay" to work!

      I promise a comprehensive explaination when you are back home ... good night for today, Pezi
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      "Pezi_S" wrote:

      "Herbert" wrote:

      Does he explain how to permanently attach the test lamp end to the battery?

      But would a 5 watt fuse in a fuseholder wired between the starter and ground also work?


      Herbert, please purchase some wires with "crocodile clips" too. You have to attach the workaround bulb/cartestlamp in PARALLEL to the starter motor! You don't have to cut/dismount any wires!

      Just clip the bulb to PLUS of starter motor and anywhere to the chassis (MINUS at battery/gearbox region) and fix it permanently with tape.

      Using a fuse would be nonsense! (shortcut!)
      No Herbert, the bulb will slightly glow all the cruise back home (somewhere beneath your seat - please stay serious and look straight forward ;)) but it enables the "load scheduling relay" to work!

      I promise a comprehensive explaination when you are back home ... good night for today, Pezi


      Pezi,

      Ich glaube dass ich sie verstehen.

      Also, I bought an auto test lamp (3 watt bulb) with an crocodile (alligator) clamp on the end on an insulated cable. The other end is a pointed probe. I guess you mean to clip the crocodile clamp to the PLUS side of the starter motor and then tape the probe end to any convenient ground. That sounds easy enough. I'll be doing that first thing tomorrow.

      If this works and I get home okay I will build a special Pezi Shrine (Denkmal).

      PS: I will also get a couple of spare 3 watt bulbs in case the constant glow burns them out.
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      After reading some more about the K100 starter, perhaps it isn't so difficult to take apart after all.

      Also, it seems possible that my starter brushes may not be badly worn, but only dirty and that a good cleaning may solve the problems my bike is now experiencing.

      Plus I have Pezi's emergency fix...
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      This morning I'm removing my starter in order to clean it. I'm hoping that the brushes are NOT badly worn but only dirty. Possibly I have enough tools to do the job. Wouldn't that be nice?

      Aus dem Oberer See
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      Removed starter with no problem. But screws holding together are very tight. I have a correct #2 screwdriver in good shape but not a huge one. Hopefully I can get the screws out without stripping the head....
    • Re: No Start Condition -- Help!

      If you need further help, write it down here. The map is covered with friendly K-drivers around you. But so far you should rename your account to herbert mc gyver :D
      Schöne Grüsse, Ralf CH